Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user2472 — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:15:12 GMT

Excellent piece, thank you for taking the time to write it.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user3969 — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:08:28 GMT

very good piece - thanks for it

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user2130 — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 01:58:40 GMT

As a total aside, Turnipseed is the best surname I've heard in years.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user4717 — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 22:28:57 GMT

Matt and Steven, you may want to talk to Jay Turnipseed at Franciscan Estate. While at UC Davis he researched the effects of pruning, thinning, and crop load on wine flavor.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user4717 — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 20:02:27 GMT

Love the topic! Thanks for writing about it, Steven.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user7627 — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 16:55:19 GMT

Excellent article. Thank you.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user4751 — Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:04:31 GMT

Brilliant article. I certainly agree with you, Steven, in that solution vs. berry physiology is the more pressing issue (pardon the pun)...

This could also explain and confirm winemaking techniques such as cold soak and post-fermentation maceration in regards to tannin management...it would be interesting to see the results of a study with consistent plant material picked at different physiological ripeness levels, and fermentation and ageing conducted the same. Winemakers, any takers?

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user4406 — Sun, 28 Oct 2012 08:36:21 GMT

This is a really fantastic article. Really, really fantastic. Thank you for sharing.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user2197 — Sun, 28 Oct 2012 05:37:34 GMT

Thought provoking and exciting!

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user2130 — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 18:26:23 GMT

Steven,

Good point about the number of seeds...take Xinomavro for instance. 4 seeds. Incredibly tannic.

My understanding: As seeds lignify, their tannins do become harder to extract--and this is where catechins end up as the grape approaches harvest. Epicatechins, which some believe result in less ageworthy wines, develop (or move to) the grape skins.

(I misspoke in my last comment suggesting that epicatechins are less extractable, which is incorrect).

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user3961 — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:48:21 GMT

Great piece!

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user7505 — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:14:50 GMT

Hey thanks Matt,

I definitely felt like pyrazine levels could have been interesting marker to track. I ran into a study that showed a correlation between irrigation and planting density with regard to levels of methoxypyrazines. The study suggested that--at least for vines that had been irrigated--the vines were ripening at a 'slower rhythm', so they seem to have retained more pyrazine. A slower rhythm is also typical of denser plantings and higher yields per vine, so it isn't surprising that increased vine vigor could connect in here, as well. Differences in these practices would fall under the category of the human factor, and would be a perfect example of the way in which there is a historical, traditional (as in the typical practices of a place) component to terroir. I ended up leaving that discussion out because it seemed to run a bit sidelong to the central issue of how place directs ripening apart from human choices. Totally worth a look, though.

As far as tannins go, I think it probably matters how we describe them with regard to the grape vs. in solution. In solution they become a more complex bag, as they form complexes with anthocyanins (Adams told me that the two compounds do not interact in the grape, but only in solution; within three years of being together in solution all of the anthocyanins will have bound to tannin complexes). Since this is the way we actually experience tannin, perhaps your theory that what we perceive and call 'tannin' in a wine solution actually describes more elements than just the chains of catechin, epicatechin, and epicatechin gallate (the three molecular building blocks of tannin in a berry). I'm not a plant scientist, either. I work in dining rooms and not in labs, so I would be pretty reluctant to speculate too much more on the distinction. I do, however, remember reading something about seed tannins having proportionally more catechin than skin tannin. These tannins, however, are typically less extractable than skin tannins, so there is a limit to how much astringency a seed can impart. What CAN make a difference, however, is number of seeds per berry. So a berry with four seeds could conceivably produce a more astringent wine than one with two. So that conditions at fruit set could affect tannin levels, too. THE CONTINGENCIES ARE ENDLESS. It's a huge topic. Made for a fun study.

RE: Wrestling with Heavyweights: Ripening and Place

user2130 — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:55:21 GMT

Steven,

This is an excellent, thought-provoking piece. Another reminder of why simple and outdated architecture (i.e. "cool" vs. "warm" climate) fails in providing a meaningful look at why wines are what they are.

A couple of bees for your bonnet, or additional crumbs for thought:

Pyrazines. I know that Richard Smart and just about everyone else in the wine science world ascribes retention of pyrazines to excessive shade, but Steve Matthiasson gives an interesting counterpoint to this, and believes that it is actually the result of high vine vigor. As an example, pyrazines are very common in NZ Sauvignon Blanc, where VSP trained vines and plenty of sunlight are the norm, but they can be managed in vineyards he consults for in Napa, where he advocates training SB on Lyre systems, which definitely provide excessive shade, but also reduce vine vigor considerably.

Tannin ripening.

When we talk about "tannin" in red wines I think we are really just using a collective term for the entire phenolic parts of the wine, including soluble tannins, catechins (a smaller molecule that polymerizes to form tannin chains), anthocyanins, other flavonoids and non-flavonoids. These other phenols affect the astringency of the wine as well, perhaps best viewed through the lens of tea: while we typically use oversteeped tea as a useful teaching tool to illustrate tannin, it is catechin in tea, not--in the chemical sense--tannin that produces the bitter astringency. It is my understanding that basic catechins decrease through ripening, but that larger epicatechins increase in proportion, and that these are less extractable. Of course, I am not a plant chemist so this should all be taken with a spoonful of salt.